Time to Cry for Argentina... Starbucks is Coming!
Not to worry, Buenos Aires will be safe. Although Starbucks is coming to Argentina it should be mentioned to people who have not yet seen BA that US brands are not as ubiquitous in Argentina as in Europe for example. Unless Starbucks is willing to sell coffee for less than 1 USD per cup they can only grow so much, domestic competition should keep them honest and with a small footprint in the country. You can guess where the stores will be... major US hotels, large office buildings, airports, Recoleta, and other places where large amounts of gringos congregate.
We can only hope that young people in Argentina will stay away from the scourge we call Starbucks. *kidding* It seems every conversation I ever hear about saving for retirement that is directed to thirty-somethings always includes the obligatory advice to lay off $4 drinks everyday and invest that in a mutual fund. If only it were so easy!
Labels: Buenos Aires, Business, Current Events, Food and Wine
posted by jammer at 8/12/2007 04:41:00 PM
34 Comments:
What exactly is wrong with Starbucks? I don't care for the paper cups but I have to admit the quality of coffee is better than you get in Buenos Aires where very low quality beans are used. AROMA, incidentally, is a BRitish owned self-service chain and is all over town. Is it too evil?
Just in case you dont feel the tone here in this post, let me just say this was more of a tounge-in-cheek type comment. Not so serious, so nothing to get your feathers ruffled about.
But I guess I can answer your question... "what exactly is wrong with Starbucks [in Argentina]?"
First off, I love BA & the rest of Argentina because it is not just like going to Anyplace, USA. I dont go there to eat McDonalds or to drink American coffee. I have found the quality of food/drink in Argentina to be just fine, and I enjoy the adventure of trying out the local places/brands.
Second, there is no doubt that Starbucks is priced for upper class people in all their markets. That isnt bad per se, but by definition it isn't good for too many people either. Sure I drink it in the US (usually in an airport where there isnt any choice) and it is good. I just think it's stupid to pay $3.50 for coffee and $1.75 for a cookie, partly because I am cheap and partly because I think they rip people off with margins bigger than drug dealers. It's kind of like movie theatre prices, except wait, there isnt the movie theatre catch explaining the high prices. You see, in the movie biz, almost the entire gate (ticket sales) goes to the film's distributor, the theatre makes almost nothing from ticket sales, so THEY HAVE TO rip you off on Coke, popcorn, and candy to be in business... Well, what is Starbuck's excuse?
Don't get me wrong, making healthy profits is great, shoot, I just might own Starbucks in my portfolio one day to share in their profits. What I would not do though is become one of the rubes out there who spends $20 a week on coffee, regardless of what I make.
I sincerely apologize for the cut and paste nature of this comment...its just that this is real succinct and I didn’t see the point of re-inventing this wheel. Here’s what’s wrong with Starbucks…
Starbucks is the leading retailer of gourmet coffee in America - 20 percent of all caf�s nationwide are owned by the firm. The company made $1.7 billion in revenues and $164 million in profits in 1999. Their name is synonymous with quality coffee in a relaxed atmosphere.
But, when farmers are paid anywhere from 2 to 50 cents a pound for gourmet coffee that sells for at least $10 a pound, the issue becomes problematic. Consider also the conditions under which the beans were harvested: constant exposure to pesticides, deforestation, songbird extinction and destruction of family farms. Starbucks does not seem so appealing anymore.
One solution gaining momentum and support is fair-trade and organic coffee. "Fair trade" means simply that the people who harvest the coffee beans receive a living wage, a wage with which they can support their families. Fair trade allows farmers credit to build their own future and also works with democratic farmer cooperatives.
Utilizing sustainable farm techniques and shade/secondary crops ensures the land is not ruined after a few harvests. Organic coffee - grown without the use of toxic pesticides - makes up 85 percent of Fair-trade coffee. Fair trade allows for the future of both coffee drinkers and coffee workers.
But didn't Starbucks agree to carry fair-trade coffee?
Since 1998, Starbucks has said it has been "exploring the possibility" of offering Fair-trade coffee. After years of organizing by activists worldwide against the firm, Starbucks finally agreed this year to sell Fair-trade coffee at its stores.
But there is a catch - you must buy whole, unground beans. Moreover, the coffee does not carry the Fair-trade certified seal, so consumers cannot know for sure that the coffee they are buying is produced under the proper guidelines.
If Starbucks can open one to two stores EVERY DAY here in the U.S., why can't it pay fair wages to the people who make its success possible?
I love Argentina. Adriano from italy calabria
I am very intrigued by this valuable lesson on Ethics and Economics. I couldn't care less who sells me my coffee, probably because I don't drink coffee, but I will say that I like my Argentina just the way it is - no extra sugar or creams added. In other words, I prefer to walk along a bustling avenida porteña without seeing the bright green STARBUCKS sign over my head - not because of any other reason besides my own personal preference. I will be very upset the day Starbucks promotes the $8.99 special of 1 Alfajor de Maizena + 1 Cup of Coffee Mate Latte. Just a nightmare I have.
I am for competitors, big or small. Keeps everyone on their toes. Call me capitalist because I am, but as a consumer I only watch out for myself. The world is getting smaller and Strabucks with all its might and money power will always have the clout to open a stand anywhere it pleases - money, loads of money tends to allow you to do that! Reality is you will always have a choice NOT to go into a Starbucks, no one's putting a gun in your head, right? I have Starbucks in my 401K portfolio but I do not go around wearing their tshirt. It is just business people nothing personal. If I am a sucker and wants to pay $6.00 for a venti why are you stopping me? It is my money and I can do anything with it. And really?! Argentina not being America USA - puleezze - IPODS, low rider jeans, MP3, JLo perfume, Louis Vitton large purses, these are USA actresses signatures - what are you people talking about - Argentina imitates USA - good or bad - reality check please!!I dare you to print this, really.
Oooohhhhh.....well I double-dog dare you to print this, really! To the "anonymous contributor" who claims "Argentina imitates USA".....you do know there's more to Argentina than just the city of Buenos Aires, right? Starbucks aside (and I wish you the best with your 401k), I simply enjoy the charming spirit of Argentina because it is so distinct from anywhere else. Believe me, this forum is not an anti-Starbucks campaign, but rather, it is an outlet for those who love Argentina to simply express opinions based on experience and preference. Now, excuse me as I head to the McDonalds on Florida Street to purchase a Big Mac. I'll just pull the money out of my Louis Vuitton bag...wait...oh yeah...Louis Vuitton is from France!!!
An anonymous poster commented, "nothing personal, just business".
The thing is all business decisions are personal to someone. Personal to the person who makes money...maybe. But very personal to the person operating under wage slavery to make the investor money. We now live in a world that cannot indefinitely sustain an economy based on continued expansion for no other purpose than making an investor money. Like it or not, ethics will necessarily play a larger and larger part in our spending and investing decisions. Sleep well!
Hi people.
I’m an Argentinean living in Argentina (that’s why my English isn’t good).
Some months ago, I travelled to Chile, and was the first time I can take a coffee in a Starbucks.
I liked a lot, the coffee and the place.
So, I would like having the choice to take a Starbucks coffee in Argentina. Certainly, I’ll not take one every day, because it’s very expensive to me (and for a majority here).
I cannot find what the problem is.
Also, for the ones who takes care about the abused people:
Are you sure that your computer, watch, tennis, hamburgers, clothes, etc., were build with all the ethical cares?
Greetings
The problem with starbucks is that it's too fast and too convenient. The act of having a cup of coffee becomes all about caffeine rush and speed, as opposed to about slowing down and interacting with people. It's a very American concept and it underlies just about every quick-fix consumer experience America lives by (and exports), and explains a lot about why Americans are so alienated, cold and violent and Argentines are so warm, laid-back and amiable. Hopefully this doesn't mean Argentines will give up sitting in cafes and turn into Americans with one hand on the steering wheel and the other balancing a latte and a cell phone, forever going nowhere.
I see why Argentines don't have a problem with Starbucks arriving, because they don't understand what it is yet. It's a poison pill for a society that lives on cafe interaction. Try sometime explaining to Argentines why McDonalds is considered cheap garbage in the US. They usually look rather shocked and dismayed. Because here it's expensive garbage -- same garbage, but they're not savvy to it yet. That's why McDonalds are always full here. I'm not arguing people need to be protected from themselves, but let's face it, the average Argentine is just no match for the psychological tricks of Madison Avenue -- neither is the average American, but we're a bit more inoculated against it at this point.
Anon 5:11
"...Americans are so alienated, cold and violent and Argentines are so warm, laid-back and amiable.."
Are you smoking something? Real life is a bit more complicated than that. However, a cup of coffee isnt. You dont like it, dont buy it. That is your power as a consumer. As to the potential ethical implications of drinking a cup of Starbucks' coffee, you might want to ask the 120,000+ employees of Starbucks that have consistantly placed in the top 20 on Fortune's Best Places to work list.
That's awesome!! So the peasant coffee farmers consider Starbucks one of Fortune's Best Places to Work!! I didn't even know they could get subscriptions!! Must be a work benefit. But, I think there are more than 120,000 coffee farmers - please recheck your stats. And another thing...wait a minute...crap...I'm in the wrong forum. This site is about ARGENTINA, isn't it?
Here are some additional facts to throw into this emotional discussion that I belive has more to do globalization of culture than anything else:
1- When starbucks started selling Fair Trade coffee in about 3/4ths of their world wide stores... they made up HALF of the world-wide sellers of Fair Trade Coffee..
2- Fair Trade coffee runs about $1.30 per pound straight to the farmers -- not including all other fees and tasks required to get it shipped, roasted, packaged, and sent to stores... The World market currently offers coffee at ~60 cents per pound
3-Even if Starbucks 4.237% of their coffee is fair trade, (as it was in the last two years)... Starbucks is still the #1 single buyer of fair trade by far... They bought 15 million pounds of fair trade coffee at over 1.50 per pound...
4-Starbucks standard buying policy offers 175% of the world market's price -- meaning they could SAVE 75% of the money the spend and STILL get the exact same coffee.. they are 'donating' to the farmers with every extra cent they pay...
5-Starbucks buys Coffee with no middle man -- this gives farmers generally about 100% more profit per pound -- BEFORE the 'extra donation' starbucks pays for every pound of coffee
6-Starbucks is one of the very, VERY few companies that takes time to educate farmers on growing practices and ideas... Maxwell and Folgers just buy the coffee at 60 cents per pound.. Starbucks buys the coffee at 1.40 per pound AND educates the farmers on how to yield more next year... as well as assisting the community to get clean water and some kind of basic health care...
7-Starbucks DOES NOT BUY COFFEE from any farmer that uses slave labor, or unethical growing practices... no other coffee company cares. Starbucks demands that any Estate growing/selling coffee with employees provide proof the employees were paid -- and not slaves or otherwise forced to work.
Other requirements -- Employees must:
-Have access to health care (which starbucks helps with frequently)
-Have access to education (Again, starbucks helps)
-Have access to water, housing, sanitation facilities (Guess what, starbucks helps!)
-Paid a 'minimum' wage
-Employees not discriminated against
-Child labor/forced labor is regulated
those are facts..you can come to your own conclusions..granted there is room for change but Starbucks is trying in earnest to change the way their business is being done..I would take a a closer look at what you consume everyday and you will probability find ethical issues all along the way..but why are your demonizing Starbucks?
It's amazing how a cup of coffe can lead to such a discussion! And another amazing thing is how one can drive buy several Starbucks cafes every day and learn so much about it and its policies from an Argentina blog (that would be me).
Let us also not forget the positive impact that Starbucks will have on the Argentine economy. Starbucks pays its workers well. I should know, I used to work at one. The Argentines that procure jobs at these stores will be making a much higher wage than those working in small cafes. More money = more spending = better economy.
Sure the coffee is overpriced and it doesn't quite "fit in" with the cafe society of Buenos Aires, but the economic impact it could have cannot be overlooked. But as I've said, to the Argentines who will work their, Starbucks won't be the scourge of the US but an economic opportunity. Why not celebrate the number of jobs this will create?
"Let us also not forget the positive impact that Starbucks will have on the Argentine economy...Why not celebrate the number of jobs this will create?"
Please - stop it. Seriously. That is the most simplistic, and ignorant, argument I have heard in this discussion. Do you know how many people live in Buenos Aires? In poverty? And you are celebrating that a coffee shop will promote a "number of jobs". Thank goodness your post was anonymous. C'mon!
In MSN news today: IRONY?
Starbucks has a markedly better reputation for employee relations than Wal-Mart does. But that is precisely why the IWW (Industrial Workers of the World) is taking on the coffee chain: Agins (a former employee) and other workers say Starbucks' employee-friendly image is wholly undeserved.
The chain, they say, has a systemic problem with low wages, irregular work hours and a lack of reliable health care. One statistic the union points to is that only 42% of Starbucks workers use its health-care plan –- an even-lower figure than the rate at Wal-Mart.
Starbucks maintains that it offers competitive wages and is among the first large employers to offer health insurance to part-time employees, who make up 100% of its work force.
"Do you know how many people live in Buenos Aires? In poverty?"
Yes, actually, I do. That's one of the benefits of being a major in Spanish AND International Trade (my concentration is Latin America). On a microeconomic level there will be benefits for the locals when Starbucks moves in. I highly doubt it is the locals that will be purchasing coffee at Starbucks. More than likely it will be expatriates and tourists and perhaps a small handful of upper class locals. Argentina is becoming a popular destination for Americans studying abroad. American college students love Starbucks. There will be enough demand from the gringos to fuel Starbucks' profits in the Southern Cone.
"The chain, they say, has a systemic problem with low wages, irregular work hours and a lack of reliable health care. One statistic the union points to is that only 42% of Starbucks workers use its health-care plan –- an even-lower figure than the rate at Wal-Mart."
The wages aren't low when you consider the demographics. I worked at a local cafe before I worked at Starbucks and made $5.15 an hour and maybe $15 a day in tips. My first few months at Starbucks I was making $7.50 an hour and received around $40 a day in tips. That's a damn sight better than what I was making before, or even since! America is not a kind place to those who work menial jobs, especially those who are not only studying full time but also single parents as well, like me.
As for the healthcare issue: the majority of Starbucks' employees are college students who are generally still on Mommy and Daddy's health insurance, so why would they opt in to company provided health insurance when they don't need it?! (The same goes for most pizza chains.) Starbucks does, however, offer excellent health insurance.
And they train (paid training, I might add) their employees thoroughly. They just don't throw you out to the sharks on your first day of work. All in all, not that bad of a company to work for.
My God. I can't believe a bunch of Reaganomics starbucks boosters pounced on this thread, waving their Spanish degrees.
Who gives a damn if Starbucks sells free traid coffee or not; who cares if they bring a few low-paying jobs to Argentina...why the hell would any country want to turn itself into a service economy like the US? They certainly won't pay a peso more to their workers than they have to; they're already notorious for screwing their US employees out of benefits and 40-hour weeks -- I know, I worked for an independent coffee house in competition with them, and their workers would come across the street to us after work to HANG OUT because NO ONE WANTS TO HANG OUT AT STARBUCKS. People go there because it's fast and convenient. I ain't smoking anything, Argentines are just vastly nicer, friendlier and happier than Americans, and Starbucks represents everything about the US that I loathe, including 99% of the people who hang out there, drive through there, or just get online to talk about how great their local one-world chain of crap coffee houses is; it's because of the kind of people posting in this thread that my girlfriend and I were thrilled to leave the US and never come back; seriously, go drown in your poisonous garbage coffee and don't forget your spanish degrees =)
wow examerican,
You are one angry dude. I suggest you start ordering decaf tall skim caramel machiattos...you need to lay off the caffeine and watch your cholestrol intake, you are a heart attack or stroke waiting to happen.
Economics aside, let me give a little input from a born and raised Argentine who still lives in Buenos Aires but has spent some time in New York, bunking up with friends.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with Starbucks. As a matter of fact, McDonald's has been here ever since I was a little kid, and I have always loved it.
But, just like McDonalds in BA are completely different from McDonalds in the US (they may have mostly the same menus, but the place themselves and the vibe are completely different), Starbucks couldn't survive in BA if they are exactly the same as in New York. In their present form, I see them maybe working up in the centro around 9 de julio, but in the rest of the city? Not so much.
During my first days in NY, after having heard so much about Starbucks in american TV, I was certainly excited to go in one.
The first time, I walked out. For an Argentine, coffee is coffee, mostly what you guys call an expresso. You have iy negro, cortado, or at the most, a lágrima. But that's it. A quick look at the menu boards on the bar, with all the weird named options, as I was standing in line to get coffee (which is kinda weird and not reallyd esirable for an argentine, regardless of how used to lines we may be), I was overwhelmed. I was just tired of walking around the city, and just wanted to sit down and have a nice cup of coffee. Instead, I had a selection so big it was stressing, I had to stand in line, and there was nowhere to sit. Not to mention that even the "small" choices are one HUGE cup of coffee, which I didn't want. Having a cup of coffee is something you do after a meal, or to kill some time between meetings, or to just stop for half an hour and take a break. The "fast food" concept does not apply.
And remember, most coffee houses in BA are not only coffee houses, cafeterías are usually places you can have lunch in,they all have at least a small menu. Or they are straight up bars. So "coffee" isn't their only market, they are place where, at the very least, you can go in, sit down, and read the paper while you drink your coffee.
And I have to say, the little snack s and the seltzer water/juice small glass was kinda missed.
I don't see anything wrong with Starbucks coming here, but I don't think they can survive if they keep the same approach as in NY. Time will tell, I guess.
As you probably have already heard, Startbucks will be facing some stiff competition from MacDonald's (who have recently opted to furnish their gazzillion stores with Baristas). What this will do to Starbucks, remains to be seen, but it doesn't bode well for them. Perhaps Argentina is an effort to find new, untapped markets.
In Spain you can easily get excellent coffee in the many bars/cafes for 1 Euro yet lots of people still flock to the Starbucks where they pay at least 3 times as much for coffee which is no better (at best). I think it's crazy. But sorry. Once Starbucks is open in BA it will be there to stay. People really are more stupid than you give them credit for.
3000 a month to live seems awfully high. I can live a very nice lifestyle in Canada for that. I have read that the average Argentine makes about 300 american a month is that true? Why couldnt you live on what a Argentine makes? Are there any Tim Hortons in Argentina starbucks suck.
Maybe a bit off-topic, but:
1) It's also a US company
2) Name starts with "STA", too
3) It (we) recently announced the opening of the first store in the second half of May
Staples is coming to Santa Fe and Pueyrredón!
Let me know if anyone wants some coupons, or maybe an invitation to our grand opening... (leo at officenet dot com)
More info at my blog.
So, just as a follow up is Starbucks and staples already open in BsAs?
Anonymous said "Argentina not being America USA - puleezze - IPODS, low rider jeans, MP3, JLo perfume, Louis Vitton large purses, these are USA actresses signatures - what are you people talking about - Argentina imitates USA - good or bad - reality check please!!I dare you to print this, really."
Argentina overall is a more darn original country than the states. i love the states but i love argentina too. i love abercrombie but i love the argentinean malls too. i love mc donald's but i love medialunas.
1. louis vuitton bags are french dude. get a life. i bet you're just some street guy that doesn't know anything
2.what the hell do we care
3. You're calling Europe a country full of crap.
4. ARGENTINA ROCKS
5. I LOVE STARBUCKS.
so anonymous, argentina is not a clone of the states. we are an independent country that has equal rights you know? so GROW UP!
G., follow up:
Staples opened Tuesday 13th in Santa Fe and Pueyrredón, even selling Dell notebooks!!! (and in www.staples.com.ar)
I live in Buenos Aires and I'm happy Starbucks opened. Local cafes don`t have the quality and variety that starbucks offers, neither do they have to go cups.
I went today and did a 40 min line to get my Caramel Frapucino, I`ll do it everyday....
it would be amazing if they paid the employees in arg. what they pay in the US. but they wont. are u aware of how many companies open branches or hire employees in argentina on the sole purpose that they can pay them less than a employee in the US. the sad thing about this is that this US company is opening a branch in a country where they can take advantage of lower construction costs, lower wages, and still OVERCHARGE. Regardless to any new US companies you dont need to worry, Argentina is a independent country and I dont see any of this "copycatting" that you people talk about in buenos aires. sure theres a bit of threading between countries, but are you aware of the stores/brands that are european that are very popular in the US. the only reason you dont realize is probably because you have no idea, but a large amount of our everyday products are from other countries...same goes in any country. I dont think argentina will all of a sudden convert to starbucks, I completely prefer the vibe of the cafeterias there over the coffee places in the US anyday...and actually seek out cozy coffee houses where theres a place to sit and relax.
Hi people.
I’m an Argentinean living in Argentina (English is my second language).
Some months ago, I travelled to Orelando Florida, and went to Starbucks 2 or 4 times and I liked ot a lot. So im your opinion I'm lame and irreponsible and not ethical vbecause I like it??
Come on... GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
Please came back to the cave times... when the money did not exists.. we kill each other for food... and "nobody" was exploided...
So Stop eating at McD, Burger, Fridays (what's the deal with the stupid hats), KFC, Taco Bell, Denny's and so.... and start growing your own vegetables and watching your own chikens because... YOU are moraly obligated with the people working there... and as you start growing your own vegetables... a lot of people stars to koose their job... free of opresion... but without money for food... but morraly fufiil
You can't be THAT "stupid"...
You don't like Starbucks.. don't go... it's your right... BUT WHY??? WHY you deneud me the right to go???
To me it's quiet simple.
Aroma offers less quantities of better quality coffee served by local "classy" porteños.
Starbucks offers big quantities of watery coffee served by imported "cheerful" latinos.
Aroma has great croissants and they serve you a scoop of icecream with your coffee (if they don't just ask for it). Starbucks has great furniture.
And on a side note, I'm not a statistician but I've seen PLENTY more Americans at British held Aroma, while I only see (surprise!) college students at Starbucks.
Now, can anyone name -not even a chain- a store that sell better coffee or service than these two aforementioned companies?
Not even La Biela!
Ok you guys are just being way too political about Starbucks' coming to Argentina. I don't really care about what's the market Starbucks looks for, or how overpriced their coffee and treats are, it's all about what customers want. I believe that Argentinian people should be able to choose for themselves whether they like Starbucks over there or not, whether they're willing to pay $4 for a cup of coffee or not and whether they choose to imitate the American lifestyle or not. I honestly believe NO ONE ever thinks "oh this is cool, they drink this coffee up in the States" it's more like "whoa, this coffee rocks". If Starbucks was any bad at all it wouldn't have become what it's become. And one final thing, coffee wouldn't be priced at $4 if people wouldn't be willing to buy it for $4.
Well, Starbucks and Macdonalds got here (Argentina), and failed.
They were too expensive, and had low quality.
They trained people to be robots who disrespect the consumer, pretending to impose the company rules. Crazy.
And they use the lower quality furniture ever seen. I felt like paying extra money for garbage treatment and garbage food.
Fail.
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